Why does loghain retreat

This is not to defend the actions of Loghain, who was clearly a power-hungry asshole with absolutely zero honor and no loyalty to his king. He is a horrible person. But his actions in the beginning, those that are used to establish him as a villain, are not without strategic sense. Simply put, Fereldan was very much boned regardless of Loghain's actions at Ostagar.

That should serve to amplify the accomplishments of The Warden, because it was a long shot either way despite what Loghain did. I don't know if it's just me that has this issue, but I couldn't see a way within the sub to post directly. The button for "submit new content" just refreshes the page. Maybe there's something I should be doing that I missed, if that's the case please let me know. The entire point of the battle for Ostagar wasn't to lure out the Archdemon, it was to hold off the darkspawn from spreading to the rest of Ferelden until Duncan's Orlesian Grey Warden reinforcements arrive and they can utilize the Grey Warden treaties to reinforce King Cailan's Ferelden army.

On the edges of the Korcari Wilds, the Tevinter Imperium built Ostagar long ago to prevent the Wilders from invading the northern lowlands. It's fitting we make our stand here, even if we face a different foe within the forest. The king's forces have clashed with the darkspawn several times, but here is where the bulk of the horde will show itself.

There are only a few Grey Wardens within Ferelden at the moment, but all of us are here. We sent a call out west to the Grey Wardens of Orlais but it will be many days before they can join us.

Our [Grey Wardens] numbers in Ferelden are too few, we must do what we can and look to Teyrn Loghain to make up the difference. We know from Eamon's dialogue at the Battle for Denerim that Cailan's Ostagar army was approximately the same size as the one The Warden amassed to replace it so they had a decent chance of holding the darkspawn off.

As I've said before, Ostagar is the last line in the sand. If the darkspawn breach that, all other nations will leave Ferelden as a lost cause and put Ferelden in isolation and look to protecting their own borders. Also, whenever the bulk of the darkspawn shows up, there is no waiting for reinforcements. The army you have when the darkspawn show up is the army you have to defend Ostagar. And Loghain killed that army along with all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden if he had it his way.

Loghain didn't even try to fight at Ostagar since Loghain has definitely sabotaged any chance for the Battle of Ostagar from succeeding by engineering its failure from the get-go. Trying to assassinate Eamon, which prevented Redcliffe's forces from joining them. Attacking the reserve forces at Castle Cousland beforehand that was en route to join them and killing Teyrn Bryce in an effort to cover up his coup and consolidate his authority-- if Loghain had not done all of this, it may have tipped the battle in their favor.

If Bryce and Eamon's reinforcements had arrived at Ostagar a couple of days later Eamon perhaps earlier if he had not been assassinated and considering Redcliffe was closer , they may have staved off the darkspawn long enough for the Orlesian Grey Wardens to arrive. And also not actively barring Orlesian Grey Wardens or Orlesian troops from even getting near the border would have been great insurance in making up for the loss even if the battle for Ostagar was futile.

As I've said before, Loghain has done all he can to prevent Ferelden from being prepared for this Blight. How did people expect Loghain to salvage Ferelden after abandoning the Battle for Ostagar and engineering its failure?

Did anyone play the game? The Blight did spread to the rest of Ferelden and the only reason it didn't annihilate it is because the Hero of Ferelden survived, used the Grey Warden treaties to amass a replacement army to hold the darkspawn back, and was using Redcliffe as a defensible base of operations and coordinating with Eamon to fight both a civil war and the darkspawn. There is no correlation to Loghain abandoning Ostagar and the future safeguarding of Ferelden due to the Warden.

Don't attribute the Warden's success to Loghain who has done nothing but exacerbate the situation. What was Loghain's follow up plan after the Battle for Ostagar? He sent messengers to Orzammar to demand the dwarves' help and not only did they ignore them, they wouldn't even let them in the city.

He's destroyed a majority of Ferelden's seasoned warriors by abandoning them at Ostagar, and Teyrn Cousland had the auxilary forces he'd need to maintain order and increase morale -- which he murdered beforehand in the sacking of Castle Cousland. His coffers are empty since he's selling elves into slavery and even if it could be argued he was justified in selling those elves, he'll never raise enough funds to make up the arms and armor lost at Ostagar.

Even if Eamon had been assassinated, his brother Teagan would raise up arms against Loghain's authority. And he's barred all foreign reinforcements which would never get to him in time. Abandoning Ostagar led him to be poorer, with half the forces or lesser he had at Ostagar, the darkspawn more dispersed and harder to pin down, and an army in conflict in a civil war. His odds of fighting the Blight are worse off than they were in Ostagar.

How is that a great plan when it has so many holes in it? All that abandoning the Battle for Ostagar accomplished was exacerbate everything. You can't condone abandoning the Battle for Ostagar unless you have a sound plan to remedy to losses you suffered and Loghain didn't have one.

The Battle for Ostagar was a do or die moment for Ferelden, it was a daunting job that would probably cost thousands of lives, but it was a job that undeniably needed to be done. Loghain and his supporters faltered by succumbing to their cowardly instincts, they could not rise up to the challenge even when everyone's survival depended on it. Worse they sabatoged the war effort because they arrogantly thought they knew better. It's only by sheer luck that the Hero of Ferelden survived and was able to remedy their mistakes.

Loghain also sent his men to check Ishal Tower and they discover the tunnels. The same tunnels Darkspawn used to infiltrate the tower. What Loghain did about it?

He is clearly either moron or sabotaged the battle on purpose. I'm half convinced that Loghain left the tunnels open on purpose. Cailan was supposed to be in the fortress during the battle. I don't know of anything that ties Loghain to Highever but that Howe's decision to murder the Couslands makes no sense unless he believed Fergus and Cailan weren't going to be a problem for him.

It's also consistent with Loghain trying to eliminate all Orlesian influence in the country. The pre-Ostagar timeline is really weird if Loghain was not planning all of that. I am sort of mad that for all the high praise and fame, no one really batted an eye when the Cousland got massacred, and then they later got slandered for selling Fereldan to Orlais. Still I just wana know like what part of it sounded like selling to Orlais, what was Bryce relationship with foreign power.

I interpreted it as Howe trying to seize power. Loghain may or may not have known about it, it ultimately makes no difference to the main story. We are led to believe Loghain is basically just a scumbag, so if he knew or even authorized it that's no surprise.

If he didn't know, it just makes Howe a scumbag. Loghain was going to see Cailan dead in Ostagar no matter what. Cailan was flirting with the idea of divorcing Anora and marrying Empress Celene. Plus, that's also shunning his baby girl, or whatever, who was likely barren. Also, Loghain's plan was to put a "decoy" small army as bait to lure in the darkspawn, and Loghain's army was meant to come in behind the horde and they were meant to come at them from both sides.

Also, because Loghain's the strategiest, he should damn well be aware what's going on in his camp. If his plan included sending someone to light the beacon, he would know that the tower had been taken. But, if the tower is overrun, and no one can light the beacon or at least light it in time to save Cailan's bait army , then Loghain has plausible deniability.

All this to say: I think Loghain should have pulled his men. The way he set up his plan shot them in the foot. They wouldn't have won with this plan, so the safest bet was to save the bulk of the army and re-strategise. Instead, he decided to pull completely out of Ostagar and blame the Grey Wardens, hired an assassin to take out what he thinks are the only 2 remaining Grey Wardens, and implement the final stages of his coup.

You can sort of tell Loghain was planning to betray Cailan all along from his dialogue, especially when they're discussing strategy around the table with the Grey Wardens present, just before the battle.

Besides this, his methods in letting a large army be sacrificed AND allying himself with that rat Arl Howe, who slaughters so many innocent people and is nothing but a dirty, greedy, disloyal, murdering bastard, and later in the game his selling of poor Elven slaves to The Tevinter Imperium, seriously dimishes any argument that he's doing it all for the good of the realm.

I personally think he is suffering from some severe mental condition after spending his entire life fighting and being so obsessed with the freedom of his beloved Ferelden and paranoid about Orlesians and Grey Wardens, thinking they're always plotting against him when in fact both factions are willing to work together against the blight. That said, it isn't entirely black and white as in Loghain bad, Cailan good.

Cailan is a weak king, his wife would make the better monarch. It's said in game that Cailan's wife is more respected, is the power behind the throne and that Cailan is considered almost a fool by his people and by the nobles. And he is. His obsession with a glorious battle against a superior evil enemy probably cost him the battle at Ostagar. Look at the position they were defending - a narrow pass in between a mountain. They were set for an epic Thermopylae-style last stand, where their small numbers of superior trained troops could've blocked the pass and slaughtered the Darkspawn by the hundreds while losing few men of their own.

All the while their archers would've been able to fire in to the horde and inflict even more casualties. Instead he lets his archers fire one volley, wastes his war dogs and then charges out in to the open.

He should've held the position, worn down the Darkspawn, then Loghain charge at the crucial moment to deliver a final blow. Maybe Loghain was waiting all along to see how the battle played out - if Cailan does something foolish then he will leave.

If he holds his defensive position then he will charge and be the hero. Whatever the case I know one thing for sure - Cailan choosing to abandon that position and charge was a stupid decision, unbecoming of a king. He doomed the troops fighting for him and cost them the battle. I think people are reading a bit too much into the specific tactics used during the battle - more than likely Bioware picked them for dramatic effect; rather than by doing extensive research into large-scale medieval combat to try and subtly make the point that Cailan's tactics which Loghain would have coached him in anyway were poor.

Also, his wife would have made an abysmal King. Whatever you think of her personality, intellect and other qualities - a King has to be someone people will follow. No one would follow her, as the daughter of a commoner. No matter how much gender and class equality there seems to be, it would look silly in a medieval context. Hell, part of the reason Loghain is so easy to move against is he's an upjumped commoner who's moved in on the throne.

My personal belief, which I've stated before in the thread, is that the marriage to Loghain's daughter was a poor one and a significant underlying cause of this entire issue. If Cailan is married to say an Orlesian or a Cousland, then it breaks the hold Loghain has over him - you've got to remember that Loghain and then Loghain and Anora have controled every aspect of his life from childhood onwards. In fact, thinking about it a bit more I would assume that Loghain's asperations to the throne date back to when he pushed for that marriage to go ahead - I can't think of many occassions in the real world where a vassal's daughter married the King without ulterior motives i.

Earl Godwin and Edward the Confessor has some similarities. I believe the wiki mentions correspondance with other monarchs and Alistair that imply he's well read and more intelligent than he is thought to be. But he believed the Wardens were going to convince the king to let Orlais come marching through Ferelden Borders with an army. That the wardens themselves had a very strong tie with Orlais.

His plan was to leave the Wardens to die and stain their names. He did not wish Cailen to die and did try to convince the prince to not be at the front of the battle.

User Info: tdawg Loghain wanted Cailan dead because he feared that the Orlesians would be able to take over and he didnt trust the Grey Wardens. In his mind he was doing what was best for Fereldan, but it was a plot that was pre meditated, as evidenced by his comment when they were discussing strategy and the writer of the game.

It is why Loghain is one of my favorite characters, he signifies the grey area between good and evil very well. If Logain wasn't plotting this from the beginning, the human noble origin just doesn't sit well with me. Arl Howe "delayed" his troops and used them to eradicate Teryn Cousland and his home.

How in the world would Howe expect to get away with this if he didn't know that 1. The Cousland troops can't respond. The King can't punish him for it. Both of those conditions require Howe to know the Cousland troops and Cailan would not be coming back, or just be beyond stupid and very lucky. Good point, Captain. More topics from this board Kill Trian or not?

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